September 2009 - mpiwg-tools - mailman3.cels.anl.gov

Re: [Mpi3-tools] Reminder: Tools WG Call Monday 9/21 8am PDT
by Marty Itzkowitz 21 Sep '09

21 Sep '09

Where's the call information? Marty On 9/20/09 4:29 PM, Martin Schulz wrote: > Hi all, > > Just as a quick reminder: we are having our next tools WG call > tomorrow at 8am PDT. > We will do this again using Webex using the following link (Jeff, I > assume this link > still works?): > > https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=123289567&UID=0&PW=NZWFmMDRiZmE… > <https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=123289567&UID=0&PW=NZWFmMDRiZmE…> > > The agenda for tomorrow is to finish the discussion on the MPI > performance interface, > in particular the logging component. The slides for this discussion > are at: > > https://svn.mpi-forum.org/trac/mpi-forum-web/wiki/MPI3Tools/slides-07-28 > > and include the notes from the previous sessions. We'll start on slide 17. > > Talk to you all tomorrow, > > Martin > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm > CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-tools mailing list > Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools >

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Re: [Mpi3-tools] Reminder: Tools WG Call Monday 9/21 8am PDT
by Jeff Squyres 21 Sep '09

21 Sep '09

No, that link has expired. I setup another series for the next 3 meetings (today, Oct 12, Oct 26) which should carry us through the Portland Forum meeting. I'll forward the invite/webex info shortly and post the URL on the wiki. On Sep 20, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Martin Schulz wrote: > Hi all, > > Just as a quick reminder: we are having our next tools WG call > tomorrow at 8am PDT. > We will do this again using Webex using the following link (Jeff, I > assume this link > still works?): > > https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=123289567&UID=0&PW=NZWFmMDRiZmE… > > The agenda for tomorrow is to finish the discussion on the MPI > performance interface, > in particular the logging component. The slides for this discussion > are at: > > https://svn.mpi-forum.org/trac/mpi-forum-web/wiki/MPI3Tools/slides-07-28 > > and include the notes from the previous sessions. We'll start on > slide 17. > > Talk to you all tomorrow, > > Martin > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm > CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-tools mailing list > Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools -- Jeff Squyres jsquyres(a)cisco.com

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[Mpi3-tools] Reminder: Tools WG Call Monday 9/21 8am PDT
by Martin Schulz 20 Sep '09

20 Sep '09

Hi all, Just as a quick reminder: we are having our next tools WG call tomorrow at 8am PDT. We will do this again using Webex using the following link (Jeff, I assume this link still works?): https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=123289567&UID=0&PW=NZWFmMDRiZmE… The agenda for tomorrow is to finish the discussion on the MPI performance interface, in particular the logging component. The slides for this discussion are at: https://svn.mpi-forum.org/trac/mpi-forum-web/wiki/MPI3Tools/slides-07-28 and include the notes from the previous sessions. We'll start on slide 17. Talk to you all tomorrow, Martin _______________________________________________________________________ Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA

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Re: [Mpi3-tools] MPI3 tools WG Mission Statement
by Tobias Hilbrich 04 Sep '09

04 Sep '09

Hi all, as Martin mentioned correctness tools like Marmot will benefit from the extra interfaces. Especially the query interface for MPI handles sounds very promising, as it would simplify the surveillance of correct handle usage. So the Marmot world is listening, unfortunately I oftentimes have a conflict at the telco time, so I am not always at the telcos. -Tobias Martin Schulz wrote: > > On Sep 2, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Marc-Andre Hermanns wrote: > >> Hi Martin, >> >>> The goal of this working group is define interfaces that can be used >>> by both performance and correctness tools to gain information about >>> internals of the MPI library, interactions between an application and >>> the MPI library, as well as the system environment an MPI application >>> runs in. This is intended as an extension to the existing and widely >>> used PMPI interface. These efforts will help in providing reliable >>> and portable interfaces for MPI tools with new functionality >>> currently not covered by the MPI standard. >> >> Does 'correctness' tools include debuggers? It immediately triggered >> things like "Marmot" and not directly Totalview, DDT, etc., as I would >> usually not refer to a debugger as a correctness checker (but then, I am >> not a native speaker). > > This was intended to cover both types of tools: correctness checkers > and debuggers. > >> >> To make that a little clearer I would propose the following change: >> >> The goal of this working group is to define interfaces that can be used >> by third party tools to obtain internal information about the MPI >> library, as well as the system environment an MPI application runs in. >> These tools include performance analysis tools, correctness checkers and >> debuggers. These interfaces are complementary to the existing PMPI >> interface. These efforts will help in providing reliable and portable >> interfaces for MPI tools with new functionality currently not covered by >> the MPI standard. > > Works for me. > >> >>> In particular, this WG is aiming at the standardization of the >>> following interfaces: >>> - A scalable version of a process acquisition interface to identify >>> and locate all >>> processes which are part of an MPI job. >>> - An interface to look for and locate tool DLLs. >>> - An interface to inspect message queues. >>> - An interface to understand progress in collective communication. >>> - An interface to query additional semantic information for opaque MPI >>> handles. >>> - A performance information interface that allows MPI implementations >>> to export >>> additional low level performance information including, but not >>> limited to, the >>> operating state of the MPI library. >> >> The time frame that was discussed today for the MPI 3.x effort was 3+1 >> years. That is 3 years until 3.0 is ready, and an additional year for >> something like 3.1 (Jeff, feel free to correct me on this). I don't have >> the experience yet, to estimate whether it is doable in this time frame, >> but the list seems to be quite long. All the items on the list seems >> valid points of interest, though. > > Most of these items have already been discussed and we have concrete > proposals on the table and they are in the process of being written up. > The only remaining item is the process acquisition interface. Nevertheless, > this is a lot of work and I am worried about this new March deadline for > getting this done to be included in the MPI 3 standard. We should be able > to get some of these items through, but it will a lot of work to make this > work for all items (or even just the ones for which we have concrete > ideas), in particular, since this schedule seems not to allow for any > substantial feedback from the forum - basically, it seems that if there are > even small objections that require a rewrite, the proposal already ends > up in 3.1 or later. Has this been discussed? > > Martin > > >> >> Best regards, >> Marc-Andre >> -- >> Marc-Andre Hermanns >> Juelich Supercomputing Centre >> Institute for Advanced Simulation >> Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH >> D-52425 Juelich >> Germany >> >> Phone : +49-2461-61-2054 >> Fax : +49-2461-61-6656 >> eMail : m.a.hermanns(a)fz-juelich.de >> WWW : http://www.fz-juelich.de/jsc/ >> >> JSC is the coordinator of the >> John von Neumann Institute for Computing >> and member of the >> Gauss Centre for Supercomputing >> >> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich >> Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 >> Vorsitzende des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir'in Baerbel Brumme-Bothe >> Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), >> Dr. Ulrich Krafft (stellv. Vorsitzender), >> Prof. Dr. Harald Bolt, >> Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt >> _______________________________________________ >> Mpi3-tools mailing list >> Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org >> http://*lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm > CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-tools mailing list > Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools > -- Tobias Hilbrich GWT-TUD GmbH

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[Mpi3-tools] Mission Statement
by Martin Schulz 03 Sep '09

03 Sep '09

Hi all, I have updated the mission statement on the tools WG website based on the discussion we had over email and during our phone call. Please send any comments before Jeff presents this tomorrow at the forum. Thanks, Martin _______________________________________________________________________ Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA

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[Mpi3-tools] Push tools webex back by 15 mins
by Jeff Squyres 03 Sep '09

03 Sep '09

All -- We're spending a lot of time here in Helsinki getting the MPI 2.2 document ready/finalized. Several of the WG meetings have been slightly shuffled to give us more time for the 2.2 work. To that end, the Tools WG meeting has been pushed back 15 minutes -- it was at 5:15pm Helsinki time; it is now at 5:30pm Helsinki time. Here's a URL that may help you translate to your local timezone: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=9&day=2&year=2… The webex information remains the same. Sorry for the last minute change... -- Jeff Squyres jsquyres(a)cisco.com

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Re: [Mpi3-tools] MPI3 tools WG Mission Statement
by Marc-Andre Hermanns 02 Sep '09

02 Sep '09

sound great. Marc-Andre Martin Schulz wrote: > On Sep 2, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Ashley Pittman wrote: > >> On Wed, 2009-09-02 at 21:46 +0300, Marc-Andre Hermanns wrote: >>> Does 'correctness' tools include debuggers? It immediately triggered >>> things like "Marmot" and not directly Totalview, DDT, etc., as I >>> would >>> usually not refer to a debugger as a correctness checker (but then, >>> I am >>> not a native speaker). >> That was my first thought when I read the text as well, there are a >> multitude of tools out there and no doubt there will me more which are >> not even thought of yet during the lifetime of the interfaces we are >> specifying. > > The statement was supposed to be as inclusive as possible. If there > is a concern that this is not the case, we can also go up a level and > just talk about "development tools". > >>> To make that a little clearer I would propose the following change: >>> >>> The goal of this working group is to define interfaces that can be >>> used >>> by third party tools to obtain internal information about the MPI >>> library, as well as the system environment an MPI application runs >>> in. >>> These tools include performance analysis tools, correctness >>> checkers and >>> debuggers. >> Is "third party" or "external" better here? Saying something is >> "third >> party" to a specification seems a little unusual to me, it would be >> third party to the vendor who implements the spec whereas external >> could >> equally well apply to the forum, specification or vendor. > > Sorry, I missed that in the original email - I don't think we should > talk only > about 3rd party tools. In particular, the performance interface will be > first party. > > Combining these two issues, what about the following intro text: > > The goal of this working group is define interfaces that can be used by > software development tools (including, but not limited to, performance > measurements tools, debuggers, and correctness checkers) to gain > information about internals of the MPI library, interactions between an > application and the MPI library, as well as the system environment an > MPI application runs in. This is intended as an extension to the > existing > and widely used PMPI interface. These efforts will help in providing > reliable and portable interfaces for MPI tools with new functionality > currently not covered by the MPI standard. > > Martin > > > >> Ashley, >> >> -- >> >> Ashley Pittman, Bath, UK. >> >> Padb - A parallel job inspection tool for cluster computing >> http://*padb.pittman.org.uk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mpi3-tools mailing list >> Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org >> http://*lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools >> > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm > CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-tools mailing list > Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools -- Marc-Andre Hermanns Juelich Supercomputing Centre Institute for Advanced Simulation Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH D-52425 Juelich Germany Phone : +49-2461-61-2054 Fax : +49-2461-61-6656 eMail : m.a.hermanns(a)fz-juelich.de WWW : http://www.fz-juelich.de/jsc/ JSC is the coordinator of the John von Neumann Institute for Computing and member of the Gauss Centre for Supercomputing Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 Vorsitzende des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir'in Baerbel Brumme-Bothe Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), Dr. Ulrich Krafft (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr. Harald Bolt, Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt

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Re: [Mpi3-tools] MPI3 tools WG Mission Statement
by Martin Schulz 02 Sep '09

02 Sep '09

On Sep 2, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Ashley Pittman wrote: > On Wed, 2009-09-02 at 21:46 +0300, Marc-Andre Hermanns wrote: >> Does 'correctness' tools include debuggers? It immediately triggered >> things like "Marmot" and not directly Totalview, DDT, etc., as I >> would >> usually not refer to a debugger as a correctness checker (but then, >> I am >> not a native speaker). > > That was my first thought when I read the text as well, there are a > multitude of tools out there and no doubt there will me more which are > not even thought of yet during the lifetime of the interfaces we are > specifying. The statement was supposed to be as inclusive as possible. If there is a concern that this is not the case, we can also go up a level and just talk about "development tools". > >> To make that a little clearer I would propose the following change: >> >> The goal of this working group is to define interfaces that can be >> used >> by third party tools to obtain internal information about the MPI >> library, as well as the system environment an MPI application runs >> in. >> These tools include performance analysis tools, correctness >> checkers and >> debuggers. > > Is "third party" or "external" better here? Saying something is > "third > party" to a specification seems a little unusual to me, it would be > third party to the vendor who implements the spec whereas external > could > equally well apply to the forum, specification or vendor. Sorry, I missed that in the original email - I don't think we should talk only about 3rd party tools. In particular, the performance interface will be first party. Combining these two issues, what about the following intro text: The goal of this working group is define interfaces that can be used by software development tools (including, but not limited to, performance measurements tools, debuggers, and correctness checkers) to gain information about internals of the MPI library, interactions between an application and the MPI library, as well as the system environment an MPI application runs in. This is intended as an extension to the existing and widely used PMPI interface. These efforts will help in providing reliable and portable interfaces for MPI tools with new functionality currently not covered by the MPI standard. Martin > > Ashley, > > -- > > Ashley Pittman, Bath, UK. > > Padb - A parallel job inspection tool for cluster computing > http://*padb.pittman.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-tools mailing list > Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org > http://*lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools > _______________________________________________________________________ Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA

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Re: [Mpi3-tools] MPI3 tools WG Mission Statement
by Ashley Pittman 02 Sep '09

02 Sep '09

On Wed, 2009-09-02 at 21:46 +0300, Marc-Andre Hermanns wrote: > Does 'correctness' tools include debuggers? It immediately triggered > things like "Marmot" and not directly Totalview, DDT, etc., as I would > usually not refer to a debugger as a correctness checker (but then, I am > not a native speaker). That was my first thought when I read the text as well, there are a multitude of tools out there and no doubt there will me more which are not even thought of yet during the lifetime of the interfaces we are specifying. > To make that a little clearer I would propose the following change: > > The goal of this working group is to define interfaces that can be used > by third party tools to obtain internal information about the MPI > library, as well as the system environment an MPI application runs in. > These tools include performance analysis tools, correctness checkers and > debuggers. Is "third party" or "external" better here? Saying something is "third party" to a specification seems a little unusual to me, it would be third party to the vendor who implements the spec whereas external could equally well apply to the forum, specification or vendor. Ashley, -- Ashley Pittman, Bath, UK. Padb - A parallel job inspection tool for cluster computing http://padb.pittman.org.uk

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Re: [Mpi3-tools] MPI3 tools WG Mission Statement
by Marc-Andre Hermanns 02 Sep '09

02 Sep '09

Hi Martin, sorry for having such a high latency. I experience some problems with my internet connectivity. > Most of these items have already been discussed and we have concrete > proposals on the table and they are in the process of being written > up. The only remaining item is the process acquisition interface. > Nevertheless, this is a lot of work and I am worried about this new > March deadline for getting this done to be included in the MPI 3 > standard. We should be able to get some of these items through, but > it will a lot of work to make this work for all items (or even just > the ones for which we have concrete ideas), in particular, since this > schedule seems not to allow for any substantial feedback from the > forum - basically, it seems that if there are even small objections > that require a rewrite, the proposal already ends up in 3.1 or later. > Has this been discussed? See my mail to the forum mailing list (that finally got out a minute ago). In short: - If we want something of our stuff included in a release scheduled for 2010 (whatever the name of that release will be), we need to get the first reading in March - Anything else will have the time of roughly 3 years (minus the time for readings and votes) Best regards, Marc-Andre > > Martin > > >> Best regards, >> Marc-Andre >> -- >> Marc-Andre Hermanns >> Juelich Supercomputing Centre >> Institute for Advanced Simulation >> Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH >> D-52425 Juelich >> Germany >> >> Phone : +49-2461-61-2054 >> Fax : +49-2461-61-6656 >> eMail : m.a.hermanns(a)fz-juelich.de >> WWW : http://www.fz-juelich.de/jsc/ >> >> JSC is the coordinator of the >> John von Neumann Institute for Computing >> and member of the >> Gauss Centre for Supercomputing >> >> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich >> Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 >> Vorsitzende des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir'in Baerbel Brumme-Bothe >> Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), >> Dr. Ulrich Krafft (stellv. Vorsitzender), >> Prof. Dr. Harald Bolt, >> Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt >> _______________________________________________ >> Mpi3-tools mailing list >> Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org >> http://*lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Martin Schulz, schulzm(a)llnl.gov, http://people.llnl.gov/schulzm > CASC @ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, USA > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-tools mailing list > Mpi3-tools(a)lists.mpi-forum.org > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-tools -- Marc-Andre Hermanns Juelich Supercomputing Centre Institute for Advanced Simulation Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH D-52425 Juelich Germany Phone : +49-2461-61-2054 Fax : +49-2461-61-6656 eMail : m.a.hermanns(a)fz-juelich.de WWW : http://www.fz-juelich.de/jsc/ JSC is the coordinator of the John von Neumann Institute for Computing and member of the Gauss Centre for Supercomputing Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 Vorsitzende des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir'in Baerbel Brumme-Bothe Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), Dr. Ulrich Krafft (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr. Harald Bolt, Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt

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