February 2008 - Mpi3-subsetting - mailman3.cels.anl.gov

Re: [Mpi3-subsetting] Subsetting scope: a POV
by unknown＠example.com 26 Feb '08

26 Feb '08

Alexander: Re: > We start this activity because: > > 1) Certain industrial customers complain about MPI complexity and > inadequacy While this is a legitimate concern, it cannot be allowed to cause the standard to devolve into a fractured morass that removes the portability of MPI programs that has been a key aspect in the success of MPI. > 2) Complexity is going to grow in MPI-3 True. And it is not clear that many of the proposed extensions are required for portable programming. In fact, they could be designed with the idea that they are optional in mind. > 3) Growing complexity may have growing performance implications > > As a result of the above, customers drift away from the MPI to > home-grown libraries, usually based on sockets. This effectively > eliminates fast networks from their scope, unless they can profit from > fast IP emulation layers. Moreover, this customer drift, if continued, > may make MPI irrelevant in some HPC areas and lead to creation of > alternative interfaces there. > > The main purpose of the Forum, as well as the subsetting WG, is thus to > react to customer demand and make MPI faster and easier to use, > especially in those areas that are subjected to the increasing customer > drift (think, e.g., massive master-slave computations). > > Basing on these premises, the subsetting, in my mind, should try to: > > 1) Make MPI standard modular. This may include: > a) Splitting the standard functionality into coherent groups that > users will be able to select/deselect at init time > b) Making implementation of some modules/functionality optional > (think dynamic process support) as they are anyway now The key issue will de defining what is optional. Clearly, dynamic process support is a good candidate since it already effectively is. However, most of the functions from MPI-1 are not (there may be some concepts/features that can be -- perhaps wild cards and topologies) but the main communication functions (particularly the full set of collectives) are not; nor is the profiling interface (in fact one could argue that the profiling interface could subsetted in corrspondence to the user level subsetting; it's not clear anything else makes sense). > c) Addressing not only functional groups but also certain aspects of > the standard that may not be needed in certain use cases (think > communicator management, message tagging, derived datatypes, > MPI_ANY_SOURCE support, non-blocking communication, etc.) > > 2) As part of the modularization, optionally identify the minimum > functional MPI subset. This may be: > a) Those 6 calls (Init, Rank, Size, Send, Recv, Finalize), possibly > w/o communicator management and derived datatypes. This may be a reasonable set. One thing that needs to be stated is that the minimal subset should not be the only non-optional one. If you do that, then portability is lost. > b) A more flexible combination of modules actually needed by the > user > > 3) Connect subsetting with other MPI-3 activities (FT, ABI, collectives, > etc.) > > As a result of modularization, we should strive to achieve > > 1) Simplification of the standard for the newcomers > 2) Performance advantages for reasonable module combinations > 3) Influence upon the overall shape of the MPI-3 standard > > There are certainly quite a few concerns here: > > 1) We may end up complicating the standard and its implementation even > further > 2) We may facilitate a split of the standard into several mutually > incompatible implementation "families" Yes, this probably the most significant concern. You can certainly subset the standard without making it more complicated but the obvious way to do it easily results in this problem. > 3) We may cause some valid MPI-3 applications break if they use optional > modules not available in the implementation involved A publish/subscribe query interface is clearly a minimal part of what needs to be provided. Bronis > 4) We may get carried away by academic considerations and miss the > actual customer demands in the process > 5) We may be engaging into a lost battle because the MPI standard is way > too rigid by design/purpose to be simplified > > To guard against all this, we need to work closely with other WGs and > the Forum as a whole, define our goals as early as possible, and solicit > extensive Forum and customer feedback. > > >From all this, by the time of the Forum meeting in March, we should have > at least a couple of slides reflecting our intentions and plans. > > Best regards. > > Alexander > > -- > Dr Alexander Supalov > Intel GmbH > Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a > 50321 Bruehl, Germany > Phone: +49 2232 209034 > Mobile: +49 173 511 8735 > Fax: +49 2232 209029 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Intel GmbH > Dornacher Strasse 1 > 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen > Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer > Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. > VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 > Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 > > This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for > the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution > by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. >

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Subsetting scope: a POV
by unknown＠example.com 26 Feb '08

26 Feb '08

Hi everybody, In the run-up to our kick-off, here's my POV on the subsetting and its possible scope/role in the MPI-3. Your comments and suggestions are most welcome. We start this activity because: 1) Certain industrial customers complain about MPI complexity and inadequacy 2) Complexity is going to grow in MPI-3 3) Growing complexity may have growing performance implications As a result of the above, customers drift away from the MPI to home-grown libraries, usually based on sockets. This effectively eliminates fast networks from their scope, unless they can profit from fast IP emulation layers. Moreover, this customer drift, if continued, may make MPI irrelevant in some HPC areas and lead to creation of alternative interfaces there. The main purpose of the Forum, as well as the subsetting WG, is thus to react to customer demand and make MPI faster and easier to use, especially in those areas that are subjected to the increasing customer drift (think, e.g., massive master-slave computations). Basing on these premises, the subsetting, in my mind, should try to: 1) Make MPI standard modular. This may include: a) Splitting the standard functionality into coherent groups that users will be able to select/deselect at init time b) Making implementation of some modules/functionality optional (think dynamic process support) as they are anyway now c) Addressing not only functional groups but also certain aspects of the standard that may not be needed in certain use cases (think communicator management, message tagging, derived datatypes, MPI_ANY_SOURCE support, non-blocking communication, etc.) 2) As part of the modularization, optionally identify the minimum functional MPI subset. This may be: a) Those 6 calls (Init, Rank, Size, Send, Recv, Finalize), possibly w/o communicator management and derived datatypes. b) A more flexible combination of modules actually needed by the user 3) Connect subsetting with other MPI-3 activities (FT, ABI, collectives, etc.) As a result of modularization, we should strive to achieve 1) Simplification of the standard for the newcomers 2) Performance advantages for reasonable module combinations 3) Influence upon the overall shape of the MPI-3 standard There are certainly quite a few concerns here: 1) We may end up complicating the standard and its implementation even further 2) We may facilitate a split of the standard into several mutually incompatible implementation "families" 3) We may cause some valid MPI-3 applications break if they use optional modules not available in the implementation involved 4) We may get carried away by academic considerations and miss the actual customer demands in the process 5) We may be engaging into a lost battle because the MPI standard is way too rigid by design/purpose to be simplified To guard against all this, we need to work closely with other WGs and the Forum as a whole, define our goals as early as possible, and solicit extensive Forum and customer feedback. >From all this, by the time of the Forum meeting in March, we should have at least a couple of slides reflecting our intentions and plans. Best regards. Alexander -- Dr Alexander Supalov Intel GmbH Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a 50321 Bruehl, Germany Phone: +49 2232 209034 Mobile: +49 173 511 8735 Fax: +49 2232 209029 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Intel GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. *

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agenda for subsetting kickoff telecon ww09
by unknown＠example.com 26 Feb '08

26 Feb '08

Hi everybody, Let's meet on February 28, 2008, at 9:00 PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET. +1-916-356-2663, Bridge: 4, Passcode: 5661281 - Opens & introductions - Scope of the effort - Next steps If you cannot make the time, please send your notes to this list prior to the meeting. Best regards. Alexander --------------------------------------------------------------------- Intel GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. *

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Re: [Mpi3-subsetting] subsetting kickoff telecon ww09
by unknown＠example.com 23 Feb '08

23 Feb '08

I can meet either Th or Fr. Wednesday would be OK, but not at that time. I will be in the air. Steve... On Feb 23, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Supalov, Alexander wrote: > Hi everybody, > > Thanks a lot for your replies. I've got 6 so far. > > Wednesday, February 27, PST 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET > emerges as the time when all but one of us can meet. Thursday, > February 28, same time is a firm plan B for all but 2 of us. Monday > and Friday look increasingly weak. > > Due to this, I'll wait for more replies till Tuesday morning CET > and then announce the final time, connection details, and agenda of > the kickoff telecon. > > Best regards. > > Alexander > > From: mpi3-subsetting-bounces_at_[hidden] [mailto:mpi3- > subsetting-bounces_at_[hidden]] On Behalf Of Supalov, > Alexander > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:49 PM > To: mpi3-subsetting_at_[hidden] > Subject: [Mpi3-subsetting] subsetting kickoff telecon ww09 > > Hi everybody, > > I suggest that we should have a 1-hour kickoff telecon to get going > on the MPI-3 subsetting. Please reply to me directly > (alexander.supalov_at_[hidden]) with an indication of the suitable > time out of the list below: > > February 25, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/ > plan B > February 25, 2007 8:00 am PST/11:00 am EST/17:00 CET yes/no/ > plan B > February 25, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/ > plan B > February 27, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/ > plan B > February 28, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/ > plan B > February 29, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/ > plan B > > I'll take care of the bridge and agenda once the time is settled. > > Best regards. > > Alexander > > -- > Dr Alexander Supalov > Intel GmbH > Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a > 50321 Bruehl, Germany > Phone: +49 2232 209034 > Mobile: +49 173 511 8735 > Fax: +49 2232 209029 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Intel GmbH > Dornacher Strasse 1 > 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen > Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer > Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. > VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 > Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 > > This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for > the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution > by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Intel GmbH > Dornacher Strasse 1 > 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen > Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer > Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. > VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 > Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 > > This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for > the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution > by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-subsetting mailing list > Mpi3-subsetting_at_[hidden] > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-subsetting ==================================================> Steve Poole Computer Science and Mathematics Division Chief Scientist / Director of Special Programs Computational Sciences and Engineering Division National Center for Computational Sciences Division Oak Ridge National Laboratory 865.574.9008 (0ffice) 865.574.6076 (Fax) "Wisdom is not a product of schooling, but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it" Albert Einstein ====================================================> *

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Re: [Mpi3-subsetting] subsetting kickoff telecon ww09
by unknown＠example.com 23 Feb '08

23 Feb '08

Hi everybody, Thanks a lot for your replies. I've got 6 so far. Wednesday, February 27, PST 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET emerges as the time when all but one of us can meet. Thursday, February 28, same time is a firm plan B for all but 2 of us. Monday and Friday look increasingly weak. Due to this, I'll wait for more replies till Tuesday morning CET and then announce the final time, connection details, and agenda of the kickoff telecon. Best regards. Alexander ________________________________ From: mpi3-subsetting-bounces_at_[hidden] [mailto:mpi3-subsetting-bounces_at_[hidden]] On Behalf Of Supalov, Alexander Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:49 PM To: mpi3-subsetting_at_[hidden] Subject: [Mpi3-subsetting] subsetting kickoff telecon ww09 Hi everybody, I suggest that we should have a 1-hour kickoff telecon to get going on the MPI-3 subsetting. Please reply to me directly (alexander.supalov_at_[hidden]) with an indication of the suitable time out of the list below: February 25, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 25, 2007 8:00 am PST/11:00 am EST/17:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 25, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 27, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 28, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 29, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/plan B I'll take care of the bridge and agenda once the time is settled. Best regards. Alexander -- Dr Alexander Supalov Intel GmbH Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a 50321 Bruehl, Germany Phone: +49 2232 209034 Mobile: +49 173 511 8735 Fax: +49 2232 209029 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Intel GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Intel GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. *

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Re: [Mpi3-subsetting] subsetting kickoff telecon ww09
by unknown＠example.com 22 Feb '08

22 Feb '08

Hi Alexander, I vote Feb 27th 9:00 AM PST as my first choice, and Feb 28th 9:00 AM PST as plan B. Regards, Leonid. From: mpi3-subsetting-bounces_at_[hidden] [mailto:mpi3-subsetting-bounces_at_[hidden]] On Behalf Of Supalov, Alexander Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 5:49 AM To: mpi3-subsetting_at_[hidden] Subject: [Mpi3-subsetting] subsetting kickoff telecon ww09 Hi everybody, I suggest that we should have a 1-hour kickoff telecon to get going on the MPI-3 subsetting. Please reply to me directly (alexander.supalov_at_[hidden]<mailto:alexander.supalov_at_[hidden]>) with an indication of the suitable time out of the list below: February 25, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 25, 2007 8:00 am PST/11:00 am EST/17:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 25, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 27, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 28, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 29, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/plan B I'll take care of the bridge and agenda once the time is settled. Best regards. Alexander -- Dr Alexander Supalov Intel GmbH Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a 50321 Bruehl, Germany Phone: +49 2232 209034 Mobile: +49 173 511 8735 Fax: +49 2232 209029 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Intel GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. *

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subsetting kickoff telecon ww09
by unknown＠example.com 22 Feb '08

22 Feb '08

Hi everybody, I suggest that we should have a 1-hour kickoff telecon to get going on the MPI-3 subsetting. Please reply to me directly (alexander.supalov_at_[hidden]) with an indication of the suitable time out of the list below: February 25, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 25, 2007 8:00 am PST/11:00 am EST/17:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 25, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 27, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 28, 2007 9:00 am PST/12:00 pm EST/18:00 CET yes/no/plan B February 29, 2007 7:00 am PST/10:00 am EST/16:00 CET yes/no/plan B I'll take care of the bridge and agenda once the time is settled. Best regards. Alexander -- Dr Alexander Supalov Intel GmbH Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a 50321 Bruehl, Germany Phone: +49 2232 209034 Mobile: +49 173 511 8735 Fax: +49 2232 209029 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Intel GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. *

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(no subject)
by unknown＠example.com 22 Feb '08

22 Feb '08

-- Dr Alexander Supalov Intel GmbH Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a 50321 Bruehl, Germany Phone: +49 2232 209034 Mobile: +49 173 511 8735 Fax: +49 2232 209029 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Intel GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr. VAT Registration No.: DE129385895 Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. *

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