Moved to MPI-2.2 mailing list - reasons see below. Jeff and Bronis, yes, I agree that language binding should stay at the end. I put PMPI behind, because Chap.1-13 describe all MPI-routines and Chap.14 (Profiling) translates all into MPI+PMPI. I agree with Jeff, that
If stuff is wrong/outdated in Chapter 2, then it should be fixed. This was mainly job of Ballots 1-4 in MPI-2.1 and will be job of Ballot 5 in MPI-2.2
I do not agree to:
If stuff in Chapter 2 really belongs in a Language Bindings chapter, then it should be moved. because there are, e.g., 20 lines on C-binding - the only 20 lines! They should not be moved to the end of the standard.
I would really like to move this discussion to MPI-2.2 because it transforms a consistent MPI standard into another consistent MPI standard, with one exception: If there are bugs in 2.6.4, then they should be fixed. But those bugs are not caused by the merge because Sect. 2.6.4 and Chap. 13 are all MPI-2 texts. Therefore it would have been a Ballot 4 discussion. And because Ballot 4 is finished, this is a MPI-2.2 discussion. Therefore I changed the mailing-list to MPI-2.2. I also believe, it will be an MPI-2.2 decision whether to keep all C++ binding stuff together in Chap. 13.1 or whether to move all the things into diverse locations in the other chapters. These location are currently not defined, because there is no special wording on C and Fortran. Fortran is mainly mentioned in datatype stuff and the caching callback functions. Best regards Rolf On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:22:47 -0700 (PDT) "Bronis R. de Supinski" <bronis_at_[hidden]> wrote:
Jeff:
I agree with most of your proposal.
If stuff is wrong/outdated in Chapter 2, then it should be fixed.
If stuff in Chapter 2 really belongs in a Language Bindings chapter, then it should be moved.
However, I see no reason to make the language bindings chapter so early in the standard. In fact, I agree with Rolf's suggestion that it would be most appropriate as the last chapter, right before the appendix that lists the actual bindings. As Rolf suggested, we should make it chapter 14 and make the profiling interface chapter 13. Making it chapter 3 does not make sense.
Bronis
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Jeff Squyres wrote:
The problem is that the text about language bindings is fairly disjoint between chapters 2 and 13. Indeed, chapter 13 is redundant and out of order / inconsistent with regards to MPI-1 text in some places *because* MPI-2 was a separate document.
What about a slightly different proposal:
1. Move some of the existing Chapter 13/Language Bindings text into the relevant parts in the rest of the 2.1 doc (e.g., move the C++ communicators discussion to the Right place in Chapter 5/Groups, Contexts, Comms).
2. Make a new chapter 3: Language Bindings. Put in it: - All C/Fortran language bindings text from Chapter 2/Terms&Conv - All remaining text from Chapter 13/Language bindings
3. Remove the [now empty] Chapter 13
On Apr 4, 2008, at 7:48 AM, Rolf Rabenseifner wrote:
About Chap. 13, especially C++.
I'm proposing (referencec to MPI-2.1 Draft Apr.1, 2008):
- The MPI-2 Forum decided to put only small overview stuff into Chap. 2 Terms. (I want to recall, that in MPI-2 the Terms are rewritten for whole MPI, i.e., still valid in MPI-2.1) - The MPI-2 Forum decided to put all deeper information into extra sections of an additionally last chapter on Bindings. - The MPI-2 Forum already decided that normal C++ bindings should be after the Fortran bindings.
- Terms, page 18, lines 36-39 clearly expresses, that all constants are given only in MPI_ notation and that C++ names (with MPI::) are given in Annex A. I.e., MPI_COMM_WORLD, MPI_FLOAT, MPI_PROC_NULL, ... should not to be translated everywhere in the chapters. Same for Table 3.2 on page 27.
- There are important things were C++ clearly differs from C, e.g. the handling of the Status. I have already added the Status handling, see page 31 lines 23-32. (By the way, this information was missing in Chap. 13.1 and only available in the Annex A.)
- I'm not aware, whether there are more such stuff, that is explained for C and Fortran and should be also explained for C++. Do you see an additional stuff like status?
- I do not expect that it would be a good idee to move all the ugly Fortran problems (17 pages) to the beginning of thee book into Chap. 2 Terms. I would recommend same rule for C++ (12 pages). Chap.2 terms has only 16 pages - with 2 pages dedicated to Fortran, 1/2 page to C, and 3 pages to C++.
Best regards Rolf
On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:13:10 -0400 Jeff Squyres <jsquyres_at_[hidden]> wrote:
On Apr 3, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Rolf Rabenseifner wrote: ...
For me, the answer may have implications on how separate or integrated additional bindings should be integrated into the language independent text of the MPI standard.
I don't quite understand. All officially-supported language bindings should be listed consistently in the standard. In MPI-2.1, for example, that means alongside the language neutral bindings in the text and in Annex A.
-------------
On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:27:08 -0400 Jeff Squyres <jsquyres_at_[hidden]> wrote:
What about the C++/Fortran language bindings text? Should the majority of chapter 13 be merged into Terms and Conventions (and elsewhere)?
It's not really a "problem", per se -- but it is a little awkward. There are sections in chapter 13 that could definitely fit in existing text elsewhere. Some of it is redundant, too.
On Apr 3, 2008, at 3:19 PM, George Bosilca wrote:
Bronis,
If the data-type section get moved into the chapter 3 it make sense to merge the leftover of the chapter 11 with chapter 7, as long as we choose a right name. "MPI Environmental Management" is not the right chapter for "Generalized Requests". But of course these are just details.
I'll get in touch with you asap to see how we can coordinate.
Thanks, george.
On Apr 3, 2008, at 12:58 PM, Bronis R. de Supinski wrote:
Rolf:
Re:
my general statements do not answer you initial question:
My opinion is that leaving obvious problems unfixed based on an expected future version is a bad idea. However, I don't want to argue over this since I think the best approach is just to remove them now and then we don't have to worry about them. Others have more concerns over the time that they can devote to this (not that I have an abundance) and might want to delay in any event in order to get it right (at least mostly).
If you decide to move parts from Chap.11 to Chap.7, then you both mus discuss this. You both are responsible for these chapters. And you should first convince your reviewers: - Chap. 7: Rich, Jesper, Steve, Kannan, David, Bill - Chap.11: Bill and Rainer My recommendation: Express clearly which parts should be moved exactly to wich line (all based on page/line numbers as **printed** in Draft Apr. 1, 2008).
I have discussed moving the datatype decoding stuff with Rich and Bill. I will move those sections as I suggested, with an initial pass for the current review. This works well for Rich since he does not have time to do this for another couple of weeks. I hope to get that done today.
For the remainder, I will look over the two chapters (7 & 11) and propose an initial merge strategy. George can react to that; I don't know how long it will take me to get that done...
Bronis
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